tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN March 29, 2012 10:00pm-11:00pm EDT
i have two tickets. you can only choose one. this could decide the rest of your life. choose one. >> well, maybe my kids -- >> take one. you have five seconds, quick. that one. one of us is going to win half a billion dollars. mike tyson, thank you very much. >> thank you so much, sir. >> take care. good to see you. that's all for us tonight. "ac 360" starts now. good evening. it's 10:00 p.m. and we begin with breaking news in the trayvon martin killing. a 360 exclusive, a new eyewitness to the shooting itself. what this witness saw and has told police. that terrible night now more than a month ago when george zimmerman shot and killed trayvon martin after pursuing him through a sanford, florida, gated community. and new angles and more video of zimmerman arriving at the sanford police headquarters that night. the time, 7:52, 25 minutes after police first got to the scene.
it's about a 10 to 15 minute drive from the scene to the station. that means that george zimmerman may have only remained at the shooting site for 20 minutes or less, being treated for injuries to his nose and scalp. this is a second angle captured by police surveillance cameras. the original view, you see zimmerman hands cuffed behind his back. he does not appear to be moving like an injured or traumatized man and the police are not wearing gloves like if he had a large amount of blood on him. on the other hand, some have latched on to this motion as a patrolman wipes something off and wipes it off on his pants. was it dirt or blood? there's no way of knowing at this point. then an officer checks the back of zimmerman's head. now, remember, zimmerman told police that trayvon martin punched him in the face and slammed his head as zimmerman's
father said he slammed his head into the concrete. is there a sign of head injury? perhaps. there's a moment in which zimmerman briefly leans against the wall before being taken to being questioned. is it evidence he's woozy or the picture of someone resting briefly after being hunched over and handcuffed in the car? it's hard to say. it's hard to see blood on zimmerman's shirt or jacket. one of the officers reports that zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head and was treated on the scene by paramedics. as we show you the new video of police leading zimmerman through the corridors trying to take a closer look at the clothes, his face, his head, decide for yourself what to make of it. what we don't yet know, did police photograph zimmerman to document the injuries or is this the best evidence to refute his claims of self-defense? what we have tonight is a new set of eyes and voice. only on this program, someone who saw the shooting and the
aftermath. we're not disclosing this person's identity. as you will hear we have distorted the person's voice. we spoke earlier. can you tell me what you saw and what you heard the night trayvon martin was killed? >> well, it would have to be starting with hearing voices, but not seeing. and then after the voices, opening the window and then seeing with two men -- two people on the ground. right on top of each other. >> you say you heard voices. what made you pay attention to the voices? were they loud? were they argumentative? what kind of voices? >> yes. at first i heard the voices with my window closed. and pretty much back in that area people walk their dogs. you'll hear people talking and you can hear them very clearly even when they're not talking loud. so i thought it was rather loud but i had just shut my window
because it had started to pour down rain. i thought who is out there walking thwal walking their dog in the rain? and then i heard the loud voices again and i opened up the window with the screen. and yes, it definitely was a very loud predominant voice. as i kind of -- i couldn't hear the words, but okay, it was not a regular conversation. you know, this is someone aggressively, you know, yelling at someone. >> and how much time do you estimate had passed between the first time you heard the voices and the second time when you opened your window? >> well, i don't think it was that long, but i definitely would say that there was a gap of time and the reason for that, because they kept on arguing. i would have opened the window the first time. >> you said -- >> but it stopped -- >> you said you went and did something else. that didn't take a long time. >> not at all. but there was a time of not hearing the voices. >> after you opened your window, after hearing the voices the second time, what did you --
what did you observe, what did you hear? >> i saw two men on the ground. one on top of each other. obviously, okay, something really horrible is happening. and at that point, not looking out the window i heard one yell for help. one yell for help and then i heard another -- as i described excruciating type of yell. it didn't sound like a help, but sounded so painful. but then the next time i looked out the window, there the same thing, two men on the grass. one on top of each other. i couldn't see a lot of movement. it was very dark. but i thought like they were scuffling. and then i heard the gunshot, which to me were more like pops than they were like a bang. >> you say gunshots plural.
was there more than one to your memory or just one? >> well, the sound that i had from where i was watching, it was more like a pop. i don't know if it was an echo or something else, but it definitely made more than one pop. >> i know you said it was dark. i don't want to ask how far away you were, because i don't want to give any identifying sense of where you were, but were you able to observe who is on top, who is on bottom, are you able to see faces or any details of the people scuffling? >> no. just that it was -- just that it was dark. i mean, only reason i could say if i was -- if i had to say do you think it was, i would have to say larger man, because after the larger man got off, there was a boy. obviously now dead on the ground. facing down. >> what did you observe after the shot?
>> it was dark, but after the shot obviously someone -- the man got up and it was kind of like that period of him -- i can't say i watched him get up, but maybe only within like a couple seconds or so then he was walking towards where i was watching and i could see him a little bit clearer. i could see that it was a hispanic man and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything else. he seemed very -- i guess worried or whatever. walked like on the sidewalk at that point and his hand up to -- up to his forehead. and then another man came out with a flashlight. >> that would be a police officer? >> no, actually it wasn't. >> sorry, there was another person with a flashlight? >> yes. >> do you know -- did you actually see the gunshot?
were you looking at -- were you looking at the struggle when the shot went off or were you not looking at the struggle when the shot went off? >> i was looking when the shot -- >> so did the shot go off during the struggle? >> i can't say if it was a lot of movement or not. i mean, the first time i looked, you know, i could see two men kind of seemed like they were -- but i couldn't see that clearly. i wouldn't say it was a lot of movement when i heard the pop, noises, gunshot. >> did you see a flash? >> no. >> earlier you had said it was two people on the ground, i believe, when you first saw what you described as two people on each other. when the shot went off, were both people on the ground as well? >> yes. >> and one was still on top of the other? >> yes. >> did you see the person being shot?
did you see -- the person that you now know as trayvon martin being shot? i mean, did you see him falling backward? >> well, one person on top of each other, you can't see the person underneath. >> so you -- so just i'm clear, you believe the person who shot was on top? you believe the shooter was on top? >> i can't really say because it was -- it was so dark. but i mean, i'd be saying in your head you're thinking when you see -- when all of this is a couple seconds later in the dark, you see that person that's alive walk away, you know, you obviously go okay he must have got up and walked away and the other people is laying there face down. >> but it's not clear to you whether he was on top and got up after shooting trayvon martin or if he was on the bottom of the struggle and shot trayvon martin
fell -- or slid off him or he slid out from trayvon martin? you're not clear? >> i did not see any of that, like who slid. just kind of from watching as they're both down there and hearing and watching the shots. and then, you know, there might have been from the darkness, because there were porch lights on, i would say a little bit of that time from the time he got up which isn't very much time, a couple of seconds, you know, then i saw him walking. saw it was a hispanic man. >> and -- >> i'm saying you only think -- the boy -- i think in my mind, the boy is laying on the ground face down and then the other person got up. you know? you kind of think that it would be, you know, mr. zimmerman. but i can't say for sure because i didn't actually watch him get up. >> was the -- you saw essentially two different
struggles you said or two different -- you saw one initially and then you saw a second one. were they both in the exact same location? >> yes. >> and was that location grass or was it sidewalk, was it concrete, do you know? >> it was grass. >> it was grass. was there a sidewalk nearby or concrete, or was this all grass? >> well, there was grass on both sides and a sidewalk down the middle. but they were definitely closer in the area where it was all grass. >> and to your memory, george zimmerman after the shooting, did he appear injured to you? did you see any blood or did you see him walking differently? >> not that i know -- just that, you know, it was kind of slow, wow, i'm looking at a person that just shot someone. it was dark like i said. i could see from the side view that it was a hispanic man and
now, as far as seeing any blood or anything else, just from a side view. >> i know this is very difficult for you to talk about and i appreciate you taking the time to do that. thank you. more coming up in a moment on what this tape, the police report and all the rest have to say about what really happened the night george zimmerman shot trayvon martin and what should happen now. we'll get reaction from the martin family attorney and talk to former police officer lou palumbo and marcia clark and mark geragos. [ male announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion.
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our most popular bed sets. sale ends march 31st. only at the sleep number store, where queen mattresses start at just $699. our breaking news tonight, an eyewitness coming forward, talking only to "360" who saw the shooting of trayvon martin and the aftermath. what did you observe after the shot? >> like i said, it was dark, but after the shot, obviously, someone, a man, got up and it was kind of like that period of him, i can't say i actually watched him get up, but maybe within a couple seconds or so, then he was walking towards where i was watching and i could see him a little bit clearer, and see that it was an hispanic man and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything else, he just kind of seemed
very -- you know, i can't speak for him, but very worried or whatever, walked on the sidewalk at that point, and his hand up to kind of his forehead. and another man came out with a flashlight. >> joining us now is police veteran lou palumbo, currently he's director of the private security firm, elite group limited, also, daryl parks, mike -- mark geragos and former district attorney, marcia clark. daryl parks, i wonder as you listen to this new eyewitness's account of what happened, of what this person saw, what's your reaction? does it answer any questions for you, raise any new questions for you? >> it answers a lot of questions for me, anderson. it's very clear that this particular witness saw what happened, and in the early part of his statement, he clearly indicated that the person he saw on top was the gentleman who did the shooting. so it's rather clear that mr. zimmerman was the shooter. he saw him, although he has some parts he doesn't recall quite as well, the first part of his
statement that i see is that he saw trayvon shot on this very unfortunate night. the other part that really strikes out to me is he seems to not see any apparent injuries from this particular altercation that mr. zimmerman claims that he suffered. but thirdly, although this is my first time hearing this statement, it seems very clear that zimmerman's statement about trayvon following him back to the truck is totally untrue, because from this witness' statement, all of the interaction happened in one particular area. so i think mr. zimmerman is going to be arrested very, very soon. >> i should also just point out, we've altered this person's voice just at their request, because they don't want their identity known. mark geragos, when you listen to this account, does it raise anything new for you? >> well, first of all, anderson, it was a great direct examination by you, kudos to you.
second of all, this is precisely why prosecutors cringe. i bet you when you ask marcia about this, this should be a prosecutor's worst nightmare. there is so much fodder in there now for the defense to talk about, if he is indeed arrested, if zimmerman is arrested, for them to play around with now, i can't even tell you. you could spend 45 minutes with this witness and use it to your advantage if you're defending zimmerman. >> marcia, what about that? >> mark's right. the more we have witnesses being interviewed by non-police sources and interviewed under circumstances like this, the more opportunity there is to talk about inconsistencies, to get additional statements and to show the conflicts between them. this is a very, it seems to me, honest witness who is trying to tell you to the best of his ability what he saw, but any normal person is going to tell a story different ways at different times. you don't say it the same way every time. a defense attorney will have a field day with that. however, it was not entirely clear to me, although i wanted
it to be, that the person on top was the person who did the shooting. it may be very well so. that may be the case. i think we're going to need to do a lot more investigation. i think the gunshot residue on the bodies and on the clothing will tell you a lot more about the angle of the shot, which will be critical to this investigation. but the fact that george zimmerman stood up, walked away with no apparent difficulty, no apparent bleeding, seems to fly in the face of the indications in the police report that he was -- that he said his nose was broken, his head was beaten in. yes, there may have been some minor injuries due to the scuffle, but what's being described by this witness indicates that it was no major struggle. very likely the one that was crying for help was trayvon. very likely the one who was being pinned down was trayvon. and the fact that this witness said that trayvon martin was face down when george zimmerman stood up is another indication that it was george zimmerman who
did the attacking and that it was a scuffle initiated by him and ended by him. >> we should also point out, lou, that another eyewitness interviewed by other news organizations, local news, have said that that eyewitness, who's calling himself john or was referred to as john, says that he saw george zimmerman yelling out for help. but, again, trayvon martin's family insists that it's his voice on the tape calling out for help. what did you make of what this eyewitness said? >> i have to agree with the first gentleman. i think for mr. zimmerman, it's quite problematic at this point. because, a, i would like to see the autopsy report on this young man. i would like to hear what zimmerman's accounting was when he discharged the weapon. did he tell the police he was on the top or did he tell them he was on the bottom? if he was on the bottom, where did he shoot the kid? was with it an abdominal hit? consistent with bleeding from the mouth. >> there should be forensic evidence for all of this. >> and i kind of spoke to this yesterday. where's the autopsy and where's the forensics on this?
i want to know the distance when the shot was fired, the angle of entry, the position of the body. there's a lot of questions here, but i think that this punches some holes in zimmerman's allegation that he was being beaten to the point where he felt that it was appropriate to use deadly physical force. >> the witness i talked to, mr. parks, said this was occurring on grass, on the ground, not on a sidewalk, so if somebody's head was being hit into the ground as mr. zimmerman indicated or his family has indicated, it wasn't on to a sidewalk, it was on to the grass, on to ground. mr. zimmerman's father gave an interview in orlando and i want to play for our viewers some of what he says happened in the confrontation between his son and trayvon martin. >> at that point, he was punched in the nose. his nose was broken. and he was knocked to the concrete. trayvon martin got on top of him and just started beating him, in the face, in his nose, hitting
his head on the concrete. after nearly a minute of being beaten, george was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with trayvon on him into the grass. in doing so, his firearm was shown. trayvon martin said something to the effect of, you're going to die now or you're going to die tonight, something to that effect. he continued to beat george and at some point, george pulled his pistol and did what he did. >> so you're saying that trayvon martin verbally threatened his life? >> yes. >> mr. parks, it does seem to contradict what the witness we just talked to, that the
the altercation took place in the grass. whether that means the witness saw it at a later time or was simply wrong or mr. zimmerman was wrong, what do you make of what he said? >> well, i think that he's clearly wrong. number one, the witness has clearly seen that they were in the grassy area, both altercations happened in the grassy area. but also, though, the real problem is that mr. zimmerman's father says that all of this happened on the sidewalk. we now have pictures of mr. zimmerman walking into the police station, and you see no injuries that would have come from abrasions on a sidewalk. so clearly he's wrong. and this witness is right, because we don't see any injuries that would have come from a sidewalk had all of this great physical force happened on a sidewalk. >> mark geragos, do you put a lot of stock into the tapes now from the police station, where at least in those tapes, it's bad lighting, the camera angle isn't good, where you don't see blood on george zimmerman? >> only if he wasn't treated at the scene. if he was treated at the scene and they cleaned him up at the scene, no, then it's not going to matter. someone's going to do a timeline
they're going to try to determine what time the witness saw this person. then they're going to say what time was this videotape played? and if in in the 20 minutes in between somebody cleaned him up, no, it doesn't matter whatsoever. >> marcia clark, people said that the police didn't seem to be wearing gloves when dealing with george zimmerman. would that surprise you if there was blood on him? >> yes. police officers know with aids and the kinds of diseases that are transferred by blood, you have to glove up. you don't take any chances with that. i don't see how the police could have been handling him the way they were if he was as bloody as he should have been with a broken nose. anyone who's seen a broken nose is aware of the fact that the blood spurts. that leads to a lot of bleeding. you would have expected to see blood on the front of george zimmerman's shirt. head wounds are known to bleed profusely. you would have expected to see blood in his short collar, blood in many more places. and certainly the police officer is being more careful.
can i also say, anderson, that the statement made by, i believe it was george zimmerman's father that you just played, if that's correct, he says that when george zimmerman pulled out the gun, then trayvon martin said, "you're going to die tonight," who says that?! that make is no sense at all. you're unarmed, someone else pulls a gun, and your first response is to say, "you're going to die." i don't think so. i'm going to say that statement doesn't make a lot of sense logically and it does conflict with an eyewitness' statement who says it all happened on the grass. >> we've got to leave it there. unfortunately just for time. "cnn presents" is going to present a special town hall, "beyond trayvon: race and justice in america" hosted by soledad o'brien tomorrow night at 8:00 and 10:00 p.m. eastern. i hope you join us for that. another story we're following, growing outrage over racially divisive tactics promoted by a group that opposes same-sex marriage.
we'll talk to julian bond with a response to the confidential strategy memos that call for driving a wedge between african-americans and gay americans. we'll be right back. which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd and you still need to retire, td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans?
a group that opposes same-sex marriage is undergoing fire after being forced to make public confidential strategy memos. court officials in maine ordered the national organization for marriage to disclose internal memos that outline the group's plans for fighting same-sex marriage initiatives. the documents do not mince words. one says, quote, the strategic goal of the project is to drive a wedge between gays and blacks, two key democratic constituencies.
one campaign condemned the tactics described in the memos as ethnically divisive. the head of the national black justice organization also weighed in saying, "these documents expose nom for what it really is, a hate group determined to use african-american faith leaders as pawns to push their damaging agenda and as mouthpieces to amplify that hatred." the national organization for marriage is not backing down. this week says it is proud of its, quote, strong record on minority partnerships. it also said, "gay marriage advocates have attempted to portray same-sex marriage as a civil right. gay marriage is not a civil right." julian bond is former chairman of the naacp, he's been a long time defender of equality for all americans, a key figure in the civil rights movement. i talked to him about the memos. >> i want to read you from some of this internal memo from the national organization for marriage. they say, the strategic goal of the project is to drive a wedge between gays and blacks, two key democratic constituencies. they go on to say that they
should recruit african-americans to oppose gay marriage, to serve as spokespeople and then provoke the gay marriage base into calling those spokespeople bigots, which would then drive a wedge. what do you make of this? >> it's one of the most cynical things i've ever heard of or ever seen spelled out in this way. the idea that these people are just pawns that can be played, the black people who oppose gay marriage, and the black people who support gay marriage, just can be moved around like pieces on a chessboard, it's scary. >> scary? >> yeah. >> they released a statement that said, "gay marriage advocates have attempted to portray same-sex marriage as a civil right. gay marriage is not a civil right." you see the push for equal rights for gay and lesbian americans as a civil rights movement? >> very much so. >> as an extension of the civil rights movement. >> of course. it is exactly the same. it's a right that all americans have and no reason why gay and lesbian people ought not to have these rights too. these are universal rights. >> but to those who say, look, this has nothing to do with civil rights, and there are many
african-americans who actually get offended by the comparison to the civil rights movement, among african-americans. >> we ought to be happy that other people, including gays and lesbians, and many other people have imitated the black movement for human rights. they've adopted our songs, we ought to be happy. they've adopted our slogans, we ought to be happy. they've adopted the way in which we went about it, we ought to be proud of that as we served as examples to others. and when others imitate what we did to gain our rights, we ought to be first in line to say, you helped me, can i help you? >> when this came out in 2009, polling showed that among african-americans only 32% of african-americans were in favor of same-sex marriage. there's a recent nbc news/"wall street journal" poll that showed 50% of african-americans are now in favor of it. do you feel like the tide of history is moving in this direction? >> absolutely. absolutely. as more and more people think, gee, that guy who sits next to me in church, he's gay, and he seems to be okay.
the guy who works next to me on the job, i think he's gay and he seems to be okay. so i know all these people who are gay and they're all right with me. >> do you think some people who, african-americans, who do not like the movement for equality being described as a civil right movement, do you think they feel that that in somehow takes away from the struggle that african-americans -- >> wrongly so. wrongly so. but if they knew that a gay man put together the march in washington, and it wouldn't have been the success it was it were not for him, i think they'd feel different about it. if they knew that throughout the history for the struggle for civil rights, black and white and asian and latino gay people and lesbians participated and sacrificed alongside their black brothers and sisters, i think they'd feel differently about it. because this is not -- we don't have a patent on rights in this country. black people don't have a patent on fighting for civil rights. this is something all americans want to do and should do. and we ought to be proud that
others have imitated us. >> it's interesting to me that in the past, you have not had a lot of straight people championing this cause, and yet you have received a lot of criticism for it. >> yes, i have. but i served in the civil right movements beside black people and white people, and gay people and lesbian people, and i often thought to myself, these people are helping me, can i help them? shouldn't i help them? and when the gay movement, which is an old movement in this country, became more and more prominent, and it became something that people like myself, straight people, could join in and participate, i was eager to play whatever part i could. because this is something, i think, important to all of us. i don't care if you're gay or straight, this is something you ought to be concerned about. >> just on another topic, i would just like to get your thought on the shooting of trayvon martin. what is your impression of what happened and of the debate that's -- >> i can only go by what i read in the papers or see on tv, that what seemed to happen is this
police wannabe followed him, against the orders of the police, got out of his car, confronted him in some way. we don't know what happened then. but we do know that martin is dead. he's shot in the chest. he's killed. and i can't imagine what he might have done or could have done that would make that happen, that would prompt that. that would make that excusable. >> julian bond, thank for being on. >> thank you. well, tonight, part three of our report on allegations of abuse at a small christian boarding school in montana. you'll meet an illinois mom who says her daughter was sent to the school against her wishes after a truant officer gave her daughter a form to sign. she was just 15 years old. >> cassie called me, she was crying, she said, mommy, i just made a mistake. >> what was her mistake? >> i asked her what happened, and she said, i just signed the papers to go to pinehaven. while protecting our environment. across america, these technologies protect air -
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discipline series, the disturbing link between a truant officer in illinois and a small christian boarding school nearly 2,000 miles away. over the last few nights, we've told you allegations of abuse at the school. it's except from state oversight. in part three of his report tonight, gary tuchman exposes what amounts to a pipeline between five counties in illinois and pinehaven christian children's ranch. dozens of kids from illinois have ended up at pine haven, steered there by the same truant officer. it happened to a teen named cassie against her mother's wishes. now, her mom wants to pull her out of pinehaven, but can't. here's gary's report. >> reporter: paula bowen of only, illinois, is the mother of seven children. what is the name of your youngest daughter? >> cassie castiel. >> how old is cassie? >> she just turned 16. >> reporter: bowen says her daughter was raped by a relative and that cassie had tried to kill herself.
>> she took a bottle of pills and she was placed in harsha -- i signed her into harsha. >> reporter: and harsha is? >> a behavioral center in indiana. >> reporter: which isn't far from paula bowen's own illinois home. but one day a truant officer made a trip to that center to visit cassie and recommend she transfer to a very different place. >> cassie called me, she was crying, she said, i just made a mistake. >> what was her mistake? >> i asked her what happened, and she says, i just signed the papers to go to pinehaven. >> reporter: paula bowen says without her permission, her daughter was then whisked away, more than 1,800 miles to rural northern montana, to the pinehaven christian children's ranch, and that's where we met her. >> reporter: what's your name? >> cassie. >> where you from?
>> illinois. >> reporter: bob larsson is the founder and preacher at pinehaven. >> the two biggest reasons can kids come is broken homes and they didn't have the normal home background and training with a dad and a mom and failing adoptions. >> reporter: paula bowen admits she's had serious problems with her life, including imprisonment. but says she doesn't want her daughter at pinehaven because of allegations from former employees at the ranch, like dennis and dave bingham, that children were choked and hit in the name of god. >> the kids were being abused at pinehaven. they were. no doubt about it. >> reporter: allegations backed by former students who say they were choked and hit not by bob larsson, but by people who worked for bob larsson. >> show me what they would do to you. >> up here, like this, then up against the wall, lift you off your feet. >> reporter: all was normal with the children during our visit to pinehaven. but if paula was worried with what she heard, why not pull
cassie out? because she can't. an illinois judge signed a court order declaring it is in the best interest of the minor to remove the minor from the custody of the parent, guardian, or custodian. you said to these people, if you're sending my daughter away, send her close to me, don't send her to the state of montana, which is a good way across the country. >> right. >> reporter: and they said? >> she signed the papers. >> reporter: did you say, she's a 15-year-old child? >> yes. they -- it's a binding contract. they held her to it. >> reporter: this is the truant officer. >> my job is to get kids that are missing school back in school and then intervene with court services, court-related services. >> reporter: it was charlie duke's idea for cassie to go to pinehaven. why? he believes in the ranch and its religious philosophy. he also considers its founder, bob larsson, a surrogate father. >> nothing in the state of illinois, nothing in the midwest, nothing in the entire
region of the country comes close to pinehaven? >> that is correct. >> reporter: this five-county area is very quiet, low-profile. but it has a most unusual export, children. you see, cassie is one of at least 29 children who over the years have been sent from this region to montana's pinehaven christian children's ranch. this area is a pipeline to pinehaven. and charlie duke gets the approval of prosecutors and judges to make it happen, to a facility with abuse allegations and employees without any certification or licensing from the state of montana. >> i personally know teachers that are there, that are certified teachers from the state of illinois. >> but they're in montana. and the point being, these kids are troubled and they need counseling and there's no one trained to counsel them. does that bother you? >> i believe they get the counseling they need. when they have a nuclear family structure -- >> i understand they have that structure. but i'm asking you, just as a public servant here in illinois, you operate by rules and regulations of this state, do you think they should have
licensed counselors at pinehaven? >> i really feel like you're trying to trap me into saying something -- >> you can say yes or no. >> -- that i'm not even comfortable talking about. >> you can say yes or no or you don't know. >> i don't know. >> reporter: charlie duke says he doesn't believe the abuse allegations. but we showed him a videotape of one of the current ranch employees, ned kent, telling us this. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> reporter: what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve endings are real close -- >> show me. where on my body would you -- >> like right there. >> show me on my -- >> right there. >> ned kent and larson both say the so-called pressure points are no longer done, but charlie duke says he'd like to talk to larson about this. >> i would like to have the assurance that that was something in the past and not something that they would condone or use in the future.
>> the truant officer says despite what cassie's mother told us, she approved her daughter going to pinehaven. but when i asked if he went on his own to indiana to have the child sign a form to go there, he responded -- >> i cannot talk about it. it's a juvenile hearing. >> reporter: and for the same reason the judges and prosecutors won't comment to us at all. so cassie remains in montana. there are 40 children at pinehaven. she is one of eight from the same part of illinois. and despite the allegations, charlie duke says if an illinois child needs pinehaven, he'll keep on recommending it. >> my opinion, it is the finest children's home that i've ever visited. >> gary, such a fascinating report that you've done over the last three nights. what is the state of illinois and child welfare experts have to say about this? >> we've talked to child welfare experts who work for the state and work in private practice and they all tell us this is unorthodox and upsetting. they say it's standard procedure to take a kid if the kid has to leave their parents close to their home.
but interestingly, we also talked to the top legal official in the state, the attorney general of illinois, and this is what's fascinating. this has been going on for many years. the attorney general's office says they knew nothing about this whatsoever. they did some investigating, and they, too, say it was disturbing, but during their investigation, they discovered that this is not their jurisdiction, that only the local state district attorneys can deal with the situation, so, therefore, the democrat is the attorney general in the state of illinois, lisa mattigan, says she can't do anything. >> and just so i'm clear, they have no trained counselors, certified counselors at this school to help troubled kids? >> what bob larsson will tell us is he believes these people are good and they're trained and they know what they're doing. but the fact is, they are not licensed whatsoever. the counselors or the teachers, not licensed by the state of montana. it's unaccredited, unlicensed, and uncertified employees. >> that's even ignoring the abuse allegations, which you've documented in the previous nights.
gary appreciate the reporting. thanks. we'll continue to follow it. a terrifying scene as a family in colorado tried to escape a wildfire. their 13-year-old son caught the whole ordeal on cell phone video. we'll show you the video from the family here, next. thousande are choosing advil® for their headaches. my name is sunshine and i have three beautiful girls. i like taking advil® for a headache. it nips it in the bud. and i can be that mommy that i want to be. ♪ [ male announcer ] take action. take advil®. what ? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it ? hello ? hello ?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello ? ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. the sleep number bed.
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the lower north fork fires killed at least two people, destroyed or damaged dozens of homes. one family's terrifying ordeal was caught on camera by a 13-year-old boy who shot a video on his cell phone as the family fled the wildfire in two cars. take a look. >> daddy? >> we'll make it. we're going to be fine. >> we loaded up the car and the last thing i saw was, you know, this large flame shoot up, and we realized we had to go right then. and we turned that corner and went from daylight into pure darkness. >> where's mom?! what's she stopping for?! >> my wife was in the jeep in front of us and reason she stopped is she thought the road might not be passable. >> it's down there now. >> it was so dark. and i was fumbling for the lights and trying to get myself together. i think we were all in such a state that it was all happening very fast.
i had to put on the brake to figure out that i could get my hand to the lights and turn those on. and i was also considering that we might not make it through and maybe we needed to turn around. and i was concerned we would just get trapped inside. >> daddy? >> [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. >> whoa! there it is. right here. right here! >> oh, my gosh. >> it's okay. we're out! we're out. we're out. >> it's amazing how close those flames were. let's take a look at some of the other stories we're following tonight. isha's back with the 360 news and business bulletin. >> bashar assad said today that his government will make every effort to assure the success of kofi annan's peace mission in syria. but as he made that statement, his forces once again shelled cities in syria. at least 60 people were killed and federal officials say
the cockpit voice recorders from the flights will be analyzed and the information given to the fbi. investigators are looking into the disruption aboard the las vegas-bound flight on tuesday, when crew and passengers said the captain acted erratically and had to be subdued. and a majority of americans are worried about high gas prices and they blame the oil company, not president obama. and the mega millions jackpot now stands at a record $540 million. the drawing is tomorrow night at 11:00 eastern. the jackpot may be even higher by then. tickets will be sold until 15 minutes before the drawing. anderson? >> isha, thanks. coming up, thousands of girls are calling an 81-year-old woman in texas, trying to justin bieber. "the ridiculist" is next. not in this economy.
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time now for the ridiculist. and tonight we're adding justin bieber's twitter faux pas. or maybe i should say phone pas. a few weeks ago, an area code, except with a question mark for the last digit. that was enough to set scores of tween fingers a dialing. you could almost see the pink sparkly phone numbers furiously trying out all ten phone numbers. can't you? so you can see where this is going. can't you? for the past three weeks, at least two people in texas have been absolutely inundated with phone calls, including an 81-year-old great-grandmother in dallas. her name is dilcy, she's awesome, and i think it's safe
to say she is not one of justin bieber's 19 million twitter followers. >> just one after the other after the other. i'd hang up and it would ring. and i told one young lady, i said, do you know where you're calling. yes, i'm calling justin. i said, this is a texas extension. and i did tell one young lady, i said, you just don't realize, he has no interest in you whatsoever. >> sometimes dilcy answers the phones and gives the believers the what-for. that's what they call the justin bieber fans, right, believers? it's a lot of calls. but other times she just lets the machine pick up. >> justin, oh, my god. call me back. i love you. justin, justin, justin, bieb, bieb, bieb, bieber. i love you. >> hi. i'm just looking for justin bieber. okay, bye. >> justin, i know you're there. call me! i love you so much. i'm sorry i called you so late, but i just got your number. >> oh, my god, sorry, i called you so late, i just got your number.
someone told dilcy she should just change her number, but she's had the same number since 1966, so instead, she changed her outgoing message. >> this is not justin bieber's phone number! please do not call again. >> i'm not sure that's going to do the trick, but dilcy thinks the calls will stop eventually. >> i think he's just a fly-by-night kid making oodles of money off of the people that are calling. >> i feel for you, dilcy, i really do. never before has there been such a perfect storm in which pop music somehow churns up so many unwanted phone calls, except for the great tommy two-tone incident of 1982. ♪ ♪ 867-5309 >> people in that area code still get phone calls from the